3. The History of this Angel

By John Thiel, Audio: The History of this Angel

When did the fourth angel come into existence? In our last study we studied the description or character of this angel and that character of people. We now want to look at and where these people arose.  In search of this character, we see how they join the third angel’s message as an historic event:

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.  The power and characteristic of these people announce and give the power of the message.

1 Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

These people are a poor and afflicted people.  They are small in number.  They have not much impact in the world by ways of mans expectation.  The power that this angel comes with is someone who is weak, fearful, and trembling but the presentation is not with enticing words but with wisdom.  It is a demonstration of the spirit and power.  It will not be the wisdom of men but the power of God.  This angel gives the final display of that calibre.  The earth was lightened with his glory.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.

Here are a people who have no glory of their own. The glory is that of the lord which enlightens their life.  It is the character of God.

Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

It’s the works that is the light.  Not just the glory of mans ability.  It is the faithfulness of practise in Gods works.  There is the power of God, the glory which is the character of God in practise.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

At the time when the danger and depression of the church are greatest, the little company who are standing in the light will be sighing and crying for the abominations that are done in the land. But more especially will their prayers arise in behalf of the church because its members are doing after the manner of the world.  {5T 209.3}

The crying these ones are doing is looked upon with ridicule by the ones they are addressing. In this angel coming to the world like this, when the earth is lightened with the glory of the angel of Revelation 18, the religious elements good and evil will awake from slumber.

The powers of evil will not yield up the conflict without a struggle. But Providence has a part to act in the battle of Armageddon. When the earth is lighted with the glory of the angel of Revelation eighteen, the religious elements, good and evil, will awake from slumber, and the armies of the living God will take the field.–7BC 983 (1899).  {LDE 251.3}

As these people powerfully move forward and are noted, the religious elements both good and evil wake up.  There are a lot of people that are good people around us who are in a slumbering state.  That is what we read of the parable of the ten virgins.  The good people are woken up and the wicked also.  We explore the rising of this movement in history how this stirred up the evil and the good and is continuing to do so even now.

The time of test is just upon us, for the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ, the sin-pardoning Redeemer. This is the beginning of the light of the angel whose glory shall fill the whole earth (RH Nov. 22, 1892).  {7BC 984.6}

That statement was written in 1892.  As we are looking at the history, here is an inspired statement that says the angel of Revelation 18 has already begun back there.  This is where we pick up the history.  We can see that it opens up the history of this angel.  He has already begun.  When the presentation of the righteousness of Christ took place, it was his glory that shall fill the whole earth from 1892 when that was written.  What is meant with the rising of the angel at the presentation of the righteousness of Christ the sin pardoning redeemer?

The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders Waggoner and Jones. This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel’s message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure.  {TM 91.2}

Elders Waggoner and Jones bought a message of righteousness by faith to the people in 1888.  We observe that this angel of revelation 18 in history commenced here.

The time of test is just upon us, for the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ, the sin-pardoning Redeemer. This is the beginning of the light of the angel whose glory shall fill the whole earth (RH Nov. 22, 1892).  {7BC 984.6}

This is directly identified as the beginning of the Revelation 18 angel.  As it was proclaimed by Waggoner and Jones, it is of significance to read of Waggoner himself.

“The Christian thinks of any other man—English, German, French, Russian, Turk, Chinese, or African—simply as a man and therefore a possible heir of God through Christ. If that other man, no matter what his race or nation, be also a Christian, then the bond becomes mutual and therefore still stronger. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. It is for this reason that it is impossible for a Christian to engage in war. He knows no distinction of nationality, but regards all men as his brothers. The life of Christ is his life, for he is one with Christ. It would be as impossible for him to fight as it would be for Christ to have seized a sword and fought in self-defense when the Roman soldiers came for Him. And two Christians can no more fight against each other than Christ can fight against Himself.”  Glad Tidings E J Waggoner.

Here is a vivid appreciation of the message of this Revelation 1888 angel commencing with the presentation of Waggoner and Jones in the 1888 conference.  This ingredient of righteousness by faith included how Christians would relate to war.  As we saw in the previous studies, as in the days of Noah, the message was not received.  This also is how the message of the Revelation 18 angel is received.  It is not accepted by the majority.

Men who are entrusted with weighty responsibilities, but who have no living connection with God, have been and are doing despite to His Holy Spirit. They are indulging the very same spirit as did Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, and as did the Jews in the days of Christ. (See Matthew 12:22-29, 31-37.) Warnings have come from God again and again for these men, but they have cast them aside and ventured on in the same course.  {TM 78.2}

Read the words of Christ in Matthew 23:23: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

“Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city.” This prophecy was literally fulfilled by the Jews in their treatment of Christ and of the messengers whom God sent to them. Will men in these last days follow the example of those whom Christ condemned?  {TM 79.1}

These terrible predictions they have not as yet carried out to the full; but if God spares their lives, and they nourish the same spirit that marked their course of action both before and after the Minneapolis meeting, they will fill up to the full the deeds of those whom Christ condemned when He was upon the earth.  {TM 79.2}

The perils of the last days are upon us. Satan takes the control of every mind that is not decidedly under the control of the Spirit of God. Some have been cultivating hatred against the men whom God has commissioned to bear a special message to the world. They began this satanic work at Minneapolis. Afterward, when they saw and felt the demonstration of the Holy Spirit testifying that the message was of God, they hated it the more, because it was a testimony against them. They would not humble their hearts to repent, to give God the glory, and vindicate the right. They went on in their own spirit, filled with envy, jealousy, and evil surmisings, as did the Jews. They opened their hearts to the enemy of God and man. Yet these men have been holding positions of trust, and have been molding the work after their own similitude, as far as they possibly could. . . .  {TM 79.3}

Here is a simple account of the rejection of this message by Waggoner and Jones.

An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord’s message through Brethren [E.J.] Waggoner and [A.T.] Jones. By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. {1SM 234.6}

This is the sad reality of resisting the very message of this Revelation 18 angel.  We look at the history some more in going from 1888 through to 1903.  As the intensity of the call to the Seventh Day Adventist church came from God, we note the rise of this intensity.

God calls for a spiritual revival and a spiritual reformation. Unless this takes place, those who are lukewarm will continue to grow more abhorrent to the Lord, until He will refuse to acknowledge them as His children.  {1SM 127.3}

A revival and a reformation must take place, under the ministration of the Holy Spirit. Revival and reformation are two different things. Revival signifies a renewal of spiritual life, a quickening of the powers of mind and heart, a resurrection from spiritual death. Reformation signifies a reorganization, a change in ideas and theories, habits and practices.   {1SM 128.1}

Here was the call, it was needed.  A revival and reformation. The intensity of the call grew and there was more and more appeal to the church.  By the time we come to 1903 we see this sad comment.  E G White who was intensely yearning for the organisation to pick up this message so it could be spread, she was waiting to hear it but wrote this;

After I received word in regard to the excellent meeting of confession and unity that had been held in Battle Creek I was writing in my diary and was about to record the thankfulness I felt because a change had come, when my hand was arrested, and there came to me the words: “Write it not. No change for the better has taken place. Teachings that are turning souls from the truth are being presented as of great worth. Doctrines are being taught that lead into bypaths and forbidden paths; doctrines that lead men to act in harmony with their own inclinations and to work out their unsanctified purposes; doctrines that, if received, would destroy the dignity and power of God’s people, obscuring the light that would otherwise come to them through God’s appointed agencies.”  {8T 231.2}

Here is this sad comment upon the reality of what transpired as God saw that no change for the better had taken place as much as people were thinking hooray we are getting somewhere now.  We look at more historic detail as we get the full picture of this angel as he continues to develop. As the people of the fourth angel launched out in 1888, there was this opposing segment within the church organisation and here in this quote is the picture that develops in the historic development from 1888 through to 1903 and what happens to the people as some take it and some reject it.

This is our message, the very message that the three angels flying in the midst of heaven are proclaiming. The work to be done now is that of sounding this last message of mercy to a fallen world. A new life is coming from heaven and taking possession of all God’s people. But divisions will come in the church. Two parties will be developed. The wheat and tares grow up together for the harvest.  {2SM 113.3}

The work will grow deeper and become more earnest to the very close of time  {2SM 114.1}

A new life was coming from heaven is what the Revelation 18 angel was all about.  However two parties will be developed.  This is the visionary unravelling of this predicament that the history of this angel is finding himself in.  The splitting up and divisions within the church is quantified.

It is a solemn statement that I make to the church, that not one in twenty whose names are registered upon the church books are prepared to close their earthly history, and would be as verily without God and without hope in the world as the common sinner. They are professedly serving God, but they are more earnestly serving mammon. Living as sinners, claiming to be Christians! Those who claim to be Christians and will confess Christ should come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing, and be separate. . . .  {ChS 41.1}

It is a solemn statement made to the church here.  As you look at the percentage of this, not five percent.  Very interesting qualification as we go on we will see something interesting in reference to this.  There is a simultaneous awakening call that those who are faithful are called upon to separate and touch not those that are making a mere profession.  The historic development becomes very vivid and very clear.

Soon God’s people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. Instead of being strengthened and confirmed by opposition, threats, and abuse, they will cowardly take the side of the opposers. {5T 136.1}

To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few–this will be our test. {5T 136.2}

Here is a forecasting prophecy that identifies that the friction within the church of the faithful verses the unfaithful is not five percent.  We observe what transpires.  In the year 1913 we observe a very powerful call once more. This is a testimony to the GC in session;

Men of clear understanding are needed now. God calls upon those who are willing to be controlled by the Holy Spirit to lead out in a work of thorough reformation. I see a crisis before us, and the Lord calls for His laborers to come into line. Every soul should now stand in a position of deeper, truer consecration to God than during the years that have passed. . . .  {TM 514.3}

I have been deeply impressed by scenes that have recently passed before me in the night season. There seemed to be a great movement–a work of revival– going forward in many places. Our people were moving into line, responding to God’s call.  {TM 515.1}

There is given a forecast in 1913, I see a crisis before us.  What did we read in 5T?  Fiery trials will come and separate Gods people.  She sees a people moving into line.  What is the crisis, this fiery trial that was looming up before them in 1913? The call to those who were of this angel was to move forward.  Those who were so filled with the appreciation of Christ and his righteousness relative to what Waggoner expressed that they would never participate in war. What happened after this call of 1913?  When did the First World War commence?   1914.  A fiery trial.  We observe what transpired there in 1914 that tested the church so severely.  Here is the historic detail of 1914. This was written in a circular The Hamburg paper 1914 by the European division secretary.

“To our dear brethren and sisters greetings with Psalm 23.  In this earnest and terrible time into which Europe has fallen, we desire to request the following of you.  As followers of Christ we should be obedient to the services of our land.

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

We should do our military duty joyfully whilst we are in service or being called to serve so that the officers in charge will find us true and valiant soldiers who are ready to die for their homes, army and father land.  Our destiny is in Gods hand.  Should we lose our life whilst in conflict, let us remember that our life is hid with Christ in God.” The Hamburg Circular paper 1914.

How does that sound?  Is that in harmony with what Waggoner taught that the Christian should not engage in war?

“The life of Christ is his life, for he is one with Christ. It would be as impossible for him to fight as it would be for Christ to have seized a sword and fought in self-defense when the Roman soldiers came for Him. And two Christians can no more fight against each other than Christ can fight against Himself.”  E J Waggoner – Glad Tidings.

If that was part of the ingredient of the righteousness by faith message, what is revealed here by the SDA church in Europe?  They are flatly displaying they are not in harmony with the Revelation 18 angel.

“At the beginning of the war our organisation divided into two parts.  Whilst 98 percent of our members stepped out, after searching the Bible, on the ground that it was our conscientious duty to defend the ‘Fatherland’ with weapons, and that also on the Sabbath; and this decided position from the united leaders was at once forwarded to the war department; 2 percent however, did not submit themselves to this decision of the leaders, and therefore had to be disfellowshipped because of their anti-Christian conduct.”  German Newspaper ‘Dresden Neveste Nachrichtent – April 12th 1918 page 3

What did we read in E G White?  Not one in twenty.  Not five percent.  What did they say?  Only 2% were faithful for not going to war.  In the German Cologne paper a public observation.

“Since the beginning of the war there has been a division among the Adventist people.  During the duration of the war the majority wanted to see the fundamental teachings set aside, by force if necessary.  The others asked that the sanctification of Saturday (Sabbath) be allowed them, even in these times of stress.  The opposing faction finally brought about the disfellowshippment from the organisation of the followers of the original principals of their faith.” Public Observation – German Paper – Koelnich Zeitung September 21, 1915.

Here is the sad story.  Here is the history of the Revelation 18 angel, that movement of people that commenced within the organisation of the SDA church under Waggoner and Jones messages.  As they went forward they were finally caused to fall apart.  Here was the division on the principal of Gods commandments in the war. The call to this angel to move forward was foreshadowed in the quote from EG White to the General Conference.  We have a repeat of the constant history of the past where Christians have had to leave the church of their fathers as we see portrayed in this story.

As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ’s withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church; but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience.  {DA 232.2}

What a repetitious event took place in the period of the first world war?  What has transpired over the last 84 years from 1914?  This poor afflicted people that we had studied that arise out of every succeeding generation, a poor people.  We now notice a verbal expression of EG White that she saw.  This is a quote that was written by the witnesses that stood by her when she said this;

“Sister White told us as we three stood on the railroad depot platform, that a terrible storm of persecution was coming just like a windstorm that blew down every standing object.  There was not a Seventh Day Adventist to be seen, they like the disciples forsook Christ and Fled; all who sought positions were never seen any more.  After the storm there was a calm, then the Adventists arose like a flock of sheep, but were without shepherds.  They all united in earnest prayer for help and wisdom, and the Lord answered by helping them to choose leaders among them who had never sought positions before.  They prayed earnestly for the aid of the Holy Spirit which was poured out upon them making them fully ready for service.  They then went forth, fair as the moon, clear as the sun and terrible as an army with banners, to give the message to all the world.  I was astonished and asked if that applied to Loma Linda as were looking that way.  Sister White replied to my question by stating that it applied to the entire denominational world.  It stunned me that I did not ask any more questions.”  Signed by Will Ross, Elman Johnson & McEntefer.

Here is the picture of what transpires since the first world war.  These people arise without leaders and they become active to choose leaders among themselves again.  They reorganise the call to move on and they were brought into public worldwide notice.

Now we seem to be unnoticed, but this will not always be. Movements are at work to bring us to the front, and if our theories of truth can be picked to pieces by historians or the world’s greatest men, it will be done.  {Ev 69.1}

Movements are at work.  This is what will bring to the front, to the public attention, this little company, not even 5%.  The membership back in Sr Whites time was about 40,000.  This is where the call comes for people in those times as it is for us today.  This angel is to be remembered here;

You must remember that this angel represents the people that have this message to give to the world. Are you among that people?  {RH, August 18, 1885 par. 14}

The question of most vital importance for this time is, “Who is on the Lord’s side? Who will unite with the angel in giving the message of truth to the world? Who will receive the light that is to fill the whole earth with its glory?”.  {RH, November 5, 1889 par. 12}

Will we who hear this message that comes directly from the pen of inspiration, the chronicles of the history that has transpired. The call for this time of earth’s history is who will become of part of the angel as we read that it is a people.  Are you among that people?  May this call be very powerfully applied to our minds as we conclude this message. Our next study is the Final Scenes of this Angel to see where we fit in.

Amen.

Posted on August 2, 2009, in 4th Angels Message, The 1888 Message, The Adventist Church and War and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 10 Comments.

  1. i meant by rejecting the calls from God.

  2. And that is good you believe that way, but it is not the same in the church as a whole and the leadership.

    • This is great then. I was reading a little more on it. I see now that you are not. Apologies. So what are you? I am very interested in knowing more about you. You have group like us?

    • Yes, we received the message from Fred. We really believe he was God’s called messenger but we do believe also that there were many like him only we don’t know. See, Sister White said that the manner God will work these last days will be very different from the manner things were done so far. I believe the meaning of this is that God’s people are very spread through this earth now with no “church” organization like the previous ones. Meaning leadership of man over man. Eventually coming the last days and as we approach the latter rain many of us will connect and recognized those of God because of the pure belief and life experience in the truth, because we all have Christ as head and made connection with Him the foremost experience. We have had quite an ordeal the last 50 years. Long story. Yes maybe we can share. We are in America. We used to be bigger but we left the Sabbath Rest Advent Church which we belonged to, they fell in the same mistake as the SDA. Fred Wright is dead now. They pretty much muffled his message. Sabbath rest advent church was a organization that was formed about 27 years in of Fred’s message. Fred himself was still alive when they got these ideas of forming this way. See from 1950’s up to 1980’s. Fred would solely preach and point people to God and Christ until a group of people started to want to do things differently that’s when problems start with us. Eventually we did not agree and they kicked us out. Now we are a small group in America and I also have my Family in Portugal.

  3. fred kionga obiero

    in our church we have forks who claim they have the 4th angels message they are teaching not to cook on the sabbath and not to take a shower are this real the messangers what are they teaching i thought the teaching should be the righteousness of jesus salvation by faith not the law

    • I am interested to hear you go to church with forks.

      The Sabbath is part of the fourth angels message. Keeping the Sabbath is important as the seal of God is placed upon those who keep the Sabbath holy. https://sabbathsermons.com/category/the-sabbath/

      The message of righteousness by faith is also important and to be upheld. https://sabbathsermons.com/category/walking-in-the-light-of-1888/

    • Fred, I completely understand what you are saying. We do have to be and do certain things but definitely not by works programs and not without teaching what the base and foundation of true Faith is. Please find this book “The Destiny of a Movement” by Fred T Wright. It is a pretty big argument that the SDA did not really accept the 4th angel message like they claim. SDA rejected God’s message in 1888 and then on a final call in the 1950’s. I am from a group who continues to study the message’s of 1888 and believe’s in these.
      Please let me know I can send you a free copy of the book actually. paulocr1982@yahoo.com is my email.

      If we do not believe our Lord Jesus is both God and man with the same weaknesses of the flesh as we have when He was on this earth, then we have already failed the way to salvation.” The SDA leadership currently believes that Jesus when he came to this earth He came in perfect flesh, meaning he did not have the propensities and temptations we had. This is grave mistake. For that is antichrist message. If he did not have the same weakness as us he could never have been our example, this does not mean He sinned. This is great part of the message of the Revival and Reformation.
      God Bless you.

    • Actually you have a book written by Froom called “Movement of Destiny”. “Destiny of a Movement” is Fred T Wright argument against Froom’s book. Froom’s book was accepted by The SDA leadership. I’m not saying that there are no people in SDA that are sincere and true but soon will come the day that you will no longer be welcomed in SDA if you truly believe in the nature of Christ the way you are saying. SDA never accepted the 4th angel message. Doesn’t not mean the people who are seeking the truth won’t see the light but open up to your leadership about your beliefs and they will start to seize you. The very fact that you have man over man in the SDA, means they have not accepted the truth. Christ is the head not a general conference. I know that many in the SDA see this way and I know eventually your will be called out of Babylon again. We have many people in our group that were from the SDA. You look at what SDA did in the 1940’s to the bible readings of Waggoner and Jones. They twisted completely the light in them to fit the argument that Froom put forth.
      I believe many people in the SDA are afraid to speak up because they have not come out from that fear of loosing the church. Putting the church first and a connection with Christ after, is not a good thing. “Many are called few are chosen”
      The reason why many people can’t see they are in apostasy is because they do not believe a church that was called of God at one point can fall in apostasy even if they old some truth above other churches. That is a grave mistake. We have to see, know and most of all experience the truth as whole. Just because we keep the Sabbath or know the truth does not make us be chosen. That’s the whole message of revival and reformation, the 4th angel’s message. When God shows us more light and we reject it eventually we seize to become His movement of Choice. We can’t think just because we hold some doctrines that are true that God won’t pass over us if we don’t progress in light.
      The message of 1888 is so important because it is the very foundation of the Truth. 4th Angel is the bigger revelation of the 3rd Angel and all the previous angels messages are included in the 4th.
      The Devil’s greatest weapon is to be released soon, and that will be very close to truth as it could even deceive the very elect. If we do not realize that our head is Christ alone and not us or a man dictating our steps, we will be lost. We can’t even be proud in the message we have. We have to check and watch and pray every step we take last we are found wanting because we think we have it. The reason why the SDA was not expecting the message is because they failed to watch and pray and they fell in laodicean condition. Which is a very hard condition to come out of. Even Ellen White said that. She knew the church’s condition and she approved of the message of Waggoner and Jones.
      The heart needs to change little by little to produce good fruit. it’s not the other way around. It’s part of the process of reformation. We have ideas and theories in us from our past generations that we too have to confess. General conference was allowed by God to be formed but this was not God’s plan, it was God’s permissive will. 1888 exposed that and that was too much for the leadership to dissolve. They could not accept that. This was the same thing as Israel asking for a king. God in is love permitted them but He made it clear it was not His way. If SDA truly accepted the message than great changes should have happened in the church especially as far as leadership goes. This does not mean you will not have appointed workers in various fields. But they are called of God not of man. Most certainly you will not have a General conference dictating things. There are ministers in SDA that do not even believe that you can be perfect spiritually. That’s the very argument of Antichrist.

    • Oh no my friend. Actually Fred did not mean that God does not destroy entirely we do believe the same as you. Most people just have the concept that God destroys like we think. Meaning he will punish you for what you do. No, you punish yourself by rejecting the He destroys but which in fact it is our decision that brings that upon us.

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